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Post by Bobby Barratt on Jun 25, 2019 7:26:48 GMT -5
If I'm honest, I much prefer the point system than that of a tour of the feds. A tour in this fashion seems like everyone is just forming an 'orderly queue' for a shot at the titles while much more deserving challengers could potentially be waiting months to receive their shot. You could combine the idea's with a scheduled tour plus the points system, meaning that once a team has gained enough points to Challenge they can intercept the tour and the title match can become a Triple Threat. I’m also extremely uncomfortable in letting my heavily booked champions go on a “tour”. All it means is they'd potentially miss every other show should they choose. They'd be more than welcome to double up if they wanted the workload. Unless you're implying there are other reasons you don't want another fed booking the champions.
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Jun 25, 2019 7:53:47 GMT -5
I don't see why, if points are reported, they can't be recorded without a registered application. That one fix: points will count but teams can't compete for the titles without a completed application--would fix every concern I have with the system.
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Post by "The Family Man" Danny Ray on Jun 25, 2019 8:19:16 GMT -5
I don't think that teams should have to fight each other after they have earned enough points to see who fights the champions unless they are not going to lose their points and will still get to use their points for a shot if they lose the match. The teams earned the points and a chance to face the champions and shouldn't have to jump through any more hoops to get their shot or have to fight in a multi-team match when they cash in their points for their match. Also when they cash in their points for a shot the team challenging team should be able to challenge the champs at the event they want to since it's a Global title shot it can be on any event card, not just the champions show.
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Jun 25, 2019 8:21:36 GMT -5
I don't see why, if points are reported, they can't be recorded without a registered application. That one fix: points will count but teams can't compete for the titles without a completed application--would fix every concern I have with the system. This is literally all Seth and I asked for, that led to all this shit. I think it's simple and fair?
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Jun 25, 2019 8:29:31 GMT -5
Before I go back and actually read everyone's thoughts and get things on paper, I wanted to give some background for my thoughts as a booker/wrestler.
I ran a very unsuccessful tag team/stable for four months. There is a lack of desire to make tag teams across shows/companies. I find that no one really wants to acknowledge that they're not getting over as a singles wrestler, nor do you want to strap yourself to someone else. Hell I'm teaming with Bobby and jokingly giving him sideeye about blowing my record lol. But the best tag team not named the Icons over the past six months has been the Nihilists, which is one guy. And the Saga, who will have enough points to qualify, is one guy. Tags and stables are hard, y'all.
I also am now a booker who really likes putting together showcards. Because the AWF is ginormous and each of the admins pops in with an issue from time to time, I find it easier going forward to book tag teams and put some emphasis on getting a tag team division off the ground so that way it's not Rando A/Rando B vs. Rando C/Rando D, and it gives the wrestlers who might not be ready for singles championships opportunities a title to chase for and opportunities to grow as a writer with or without one another.
This started because I want to submit that if I'm submitting match results to a spreadsheet anyway, all of the tag teams in my results, and not just the "globally registered" ones, should score points. To me, it's a really weird lack of logic that if the Seth/Raiden pair fighting the champions next Saturday beats them clean in the center of the ring, that they've scored 0 points because they're not registered. That's a tag team win, and a good one... it should be worth the two points. (PLease don't argue with me that now they registered, you're missing the point there.)
Since administrators are submitting results anyway to a tag czar, all this update I'm proposing to the system would require is another row filled out for new teams. Once they hit five matches, I agree they should be registered before they receive a title shot. But it's basically something we're already doing.
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Post by Dave D-Flipz on Jun 25, 2019 8:35:24 GMT -5
Honestly the biggest issue I've seen is that most of these teams are all singles guys teaming up. The current tag champs are a perennial world title contender and a rising star who already has a world title shot. When the GUNS came back they exclusively were a tag team but nobody was around to challenge them. Filth Factory and Nihilists were dedicated tag teams. Even if you have multiple characters most people will RP as all their guys but having to be the tag champ and worry about RPing while ALSO being a singles guy trying to win a title deflated the belts since Bobby and Jack had to defend while also being world champs. Mav and Drago are hunting singles titles while holding the tag belts. The issue for me is the teams sign up in the global forum expecting a title shot immediately because they don't want to waste time with tag matches that take away from their singles feuds/runs. And that is why we had the constant badgering of the Icons while teams like the Nihilists went to the tag MATCH forum and tried to build cred.
We have the same problem now. Are Seth and Raiden really going to build a tag team run while holding the X*Crown and AWF PRestige title respectively? No. Are Mav and Drago really going to be concerned with making non-title matches when they are also competing for the same 2 titles? I feel like if you want the global tag titles, which you should they have historically been very well received and held in high regard in the XHF you should at least dedicate yourself that if you WIN the titles you put off the singles runs to defend until you lose. That way you are building contenders by having non-title matches and showing off the belts to other feds as well.
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Post by Dave D-Flipz on Jun 25, 2019 8:37:42 GMT -5
Also the global register for tag titles that Caff and Seth suggested sounds fine as long as the bookers in the feds the tag matches are in alert the tag czar (ugh) to the matchup and points can be recorded that way. I see no issue there to be honest.
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Post by Dave D-Flipz on Jun 25, 2019 8:40:48 GMT -5
I will also state that the concern of losing 5 matches in a row to get 5 points is valid. I mean I can just state DT and Nelly are a team, make 5 tag matches, never RP for them, lose with no work on my part ... sure I'm putting over 5 other teams who get points but they didn't earn them, and now I can challenge for the tag titles.
Perhaps putting a you must RP (in non-angled feds ...) to gain the 1 point rule in place could work? And I do like the idea of you must have at least ONE win before you can challenge even if it's 3 losses and a win it still shows you beat a team and have a shot. Maybe?
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Post by Bobby Barratt on Jun 25, 2019 8:48:06 GMT -5
Honestly the biggest issue I've seen is that most of these teams are all singles guys teaming up. The current tag champs are a perennial world title contender and a rising star who already has a world title shot. When the GUNS came back they exclusively were a tag team but nobody was around to challenge them. Filth Factory and Nihilists were dedicated tag teams. Even if you have multiple characters most people will RP as all their guys but having to be the tag champ and worry about RPing while ALSO being a singles guy trying to win a title deflated the belts since Bobby and Jack had to defend while also being world champs. Mav and Drago are hunting singles titles while holding the tag belts. The issue for me is the teams sign up in the global forum expecting a title shot immediately because they don't want to waste time with tag matches that take away from their singles feuds/runs. And that is why we had the constant badgering of the Icons while teams like the Nihilists went to the tag MATCH forum and tried to build cred. We have the same problem now. Are Seth and Raiden really going to build a tag team run while holding the X*Crown and AWF PRestige title respectively? No. Are Mav and Drago really going to be concerned with making non-title matches when they are also competing for the same 2 titles? I feel like if you want the global tag titles, which you should they have historically been very well received and held in high regard in the XHF you should at least dedicate yourself that if you WIN the titles you put off the singles runs to defend until you lose. That way you are building contenders by having non-title matches and showing off the belts to other feds as well. I'm pretty sure this was the thought process that brought it all about. Either 2 singles guys coming together and challenging as a brand new team or 2 singles guys being created as a tag team that instantly challenged. There was no credibility there and therefore they had no right to challenge the champions.
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Jun 25, 2019 8:59:09 GMT -5
I also want to point out that we're six+ months out from the Jack/Bobby tag championship "tour" reign. The XHF is much different since then. Destiny Wrestling, Champion Wrestling, SWAT, Lucha Xtreme, Aslyum, EIWL, and MCCW all did not exist with our federation at that time. So anything we do has to also work for all of us. I am aware as the granddaddies of the network, we have different perspective, but everything needs to work for everyone about as well as possible.
Thoughts:
Mongo/Bobby Post 1 and 2) Re-retiring the belts is such a petty act of taking the ball and going home that it kind of offends me, but moving on.
Bobby Post 2) I don't think the tag team champions should be required to have agency to book their own defenses. They're wrestlers, not bookers. This is not '90s WWE, there are no Hogans running around booking themselves. The champions go where the bookers tell them to go, for the most part. I think we in the XHF have a natural desire to stick our fingers into every pie we can because most of the talented and established performers do double duty as a booker/wrestler. But I think this is a bad idea because at the end of the day, I trust 0% of 0 champions to act in ways that don't preserve their own championship reigns, explicitly or non-explicitly. I actually fiercely get involved in our AWF Admin Chat whenever someone goes about trying to book themselves period. Personal policy, I hate it, I think people aren't lying when they say they wouldn't do it, but I also think when push comes to shove everyone wants the shiny.
Bobby Post 4) Again, I don't want champions choosing to defend against who they like/when they like. I doubt any tag team is watching every single show and every single episode on the network. I also think this post weirdly contradicts with itself -- if teams don't have the points, they shouldn't be able to compete unless we want to ixnay the whole point system, because the whole system seems to have been designed to build credible teams.
Maverick Post 5) I don't want the tag czar to be the tag team champion. This goes back to my first rule. I love Mav, he's a kickass admin, but if you're competiting for the belt, regardless of whatever we're doing, you can't also run the division. This needs to be a hands off effort.
Soutter Post 6) I'm also so against the tour idea. I'm sorry about how much I don't like it, but the teams still need to earn five points before they get a shot. I have zero problem with sending out the champions to a fed once a team has earned the shot, and I agree with Soutter that the network admins should still judge, but I think there's way too many redflags that can occur when you're sending your company's best and brightest out to a federation where you ultimately have zero say in what happens.
Payne Post 7) I think teaming up five times is fine for a title shot. I don't see an issue with it, just because I'd believe that the team is legitimate and has some chemistry. It depends on your view of the Ryder/Hawkins tag championship reign, but I believe a team that has teamed that much has some credibilty to it, and if they catch lightning when the lights are on brightest, that's fine with me. I'm down for rewarding anyone who wants to put in the work to be a tag team, especially because it will incentivize wrestlers who need to learn and grow by giving them something to do and push for.
I'm saying, and this might be controversial, but if AWF gets a team up to five points, I'm booking the tag champions against that team at some point. And I expect every other company to be able to make that claim and do exactly the same.
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Maverick Post 8) I'm really not comfortable with sending the AWF's potential world champion out to job out to random companies on the reg or because the tag team decided it was a good idea at the time. I'm sorry, but the network usually does not do collabs on anything but global shows. Everytime I've seen someone cross booked outside of SSS (the kings of doing it well), it ends in a shitshow and fights.
I also really think that if you had the intention of doing so, then we would have heard about it before this shit all happened? Not to be a prick about it, but it seems weirdly conveniently timed.
Soutter Post 9) Why the fuck is there a point system if we're giving out cotton candy title shots because it's someone's "tour turn"?
Bobby 10) I don't mind booking a title shot after a loss, and to be needlessly blunt and cause a fight, neither does AXW, so it makes no sense to suddenly add this restriction just because a contender choked.
Payne 11) Yes, point system. This guy gets it. Minus incorporating the tour. Strike the tour. I hate the tour.
Barratt 12) WHY are we sending the tag champions on a tour? We don't do this with the X*Crown or the European Championship. Can I have Seth Dillinger come to AXW, or Brad Swann come to AWF for a tour? No? No. We don't do that.
Again, you win enough matches? Cool! There goes the champions. But I believe it's the fed's responsibilty to build up the contenders to a credible point (three/four matches, guys, come on) and then the champions to go defend. This isn't a hard concept. I just want every tag match to count for points is all. And that's it!
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Jun 25, 2019 9:03:54 GMT -5
Honestly the biggest issue I've seen is that most of these teams are all singles guys teaming up. The current tag champs are a perennial world title contender and a rising star who already has a world title shot. When the GUNS came back they exclusively were a tag team but nobody was around to challenge them. Filth Factory and Nihilists were dedicated tag teams. Even if you have multiple characters most people will RP as all their guys but having to be the tag champ and worry about RPing while ALSO being a singles guy trying to win a title deflated the belts since Bobby and Jack had to defend while also being world champs. Mav and Drago are hunting singles titles while holding the tag belts. The issue for me is the teams sign up in the global forum expecting a title shot immediately because they don't want to waste time with tag matches that take away from their singles feuds/runs. And that is why we had the constant badgering of the Icons while teams like the Nihilists went to the tag MATCH forum and tried to build cred. We have the same problem now. Are Seth and Raiden really going to build a tag team run while holding the X*Crown and AWF PRestige title respectively? No. Are Mav and Drago really going to be concerned with making non-title matches when they are also competing for the same 2 titles? I feel like if you want the global tag titles, which you should they have historically been very well received and held in high regard in the XHF you should at least dedicate yourself that if you WIN the titles you put off the singles runs to defend until you lose. That way you are building contenders by having non-title matches and showing off the belts to other feds as well. I actually don't hate this second paragraph at all, but as the booker who has Drago in a world title match in a few weeks, good idea a little too late... and also I'm pretty convinced that everyone is going to not want to fight for a tag team championship match and put a singles career on hold willingly.
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Jun 25, 2019 9:04:11 GMT -5
Also the global register for tag titles that Caff and Seth suggested sounds fine as long as the bookers in the feds the tag matches are in alert the tag czar (ugh) to the matchup and points can be recorded that way. I see no issue there to be honest. Cool. If this is done, then it's fine, and I have no further issues.
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Jun 25, 2019 9:05:00 GMT -5
Also the global register for tag titles that Caff and Seth suggested sounds fine as long as the bookers in the feds the tag matches are in alert the tag czar (ugh) to the matchup and points can be recorded that way. I see no issue there to be honest. That's literally all we wanted.
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Jun 25, 2019 9:06:25 GMT -5
I will also state that the concern of losing 5 matches in a row to get 5 points is valid. I mean I can just state DT and Nelly are a team, make 5 tag matches, never RP for them, lose with no work on my part ... sure I'm putting over 5 other teams who get points but they didn't earn them, and now I can challenge for the tag titles. Perhaps putting a you must RP (in non-angled feds ...) to gain the 1 point rule in place could work? And I do like the idea of you must have at least ONE win before you can challenge even if it's 3 losses and a win it still shows you beat a team and have a shot. Maybe? I think having to RP to gain the point is a very acceptable way to counter that problem. I can also begrudgingly agree with having at least one win.
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Post by Dave D-Flipz on Jun 25, 2019 9:07:41 GMT -5
As a quick note the tag titles are unique in that they are a GLOBAL tag title for all feds. While the X*Crown is a global title in that it is supposed to be a prize to go for beyond your fed and show you are the best right now it is also NORMALLY a title within whichever fed holds it until the next global show where it must be defended to give the title a chance to bounce feds. The Phoenix and Euro titles are firmly in the feds they are in and booked as if they are titles in that fed just continuing the name of the XHF title as a way of showing the network supports its feds. So there really is no comparison.
That said if the only change everyone really wanted was every tag match counted that's an easy fix and I'll lay it out here. When you book a tag match in your fed, once the show is posted you simply message the tag czar with "here's the match we had, here's the result". Takes 5 seconds. The tag czar then updates the spreadsheet with points and any new teams. Takes I dunno 30 seconds.
But here's the thing, this means the tag czar isn't really running anything. They are simply volunteering to keep track of teams and points and then post a little post somewhere when someone reaches 5 points and can challenge for the titles. So really it doesn't matter who is the czar, whether they compete for the titles or are the champ because they have no booking power. They are basically an accountant. With the added benefit of knowing all the teams, who is hot, who is close/ready ... and that's it.
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