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Post by IMMORTALS on Sept 29, 2019 20:05:16 GMT -5
As for the Euro title, I get that retiring it makes sense. Least for now. Whoever does win gets nice bragging rights, so I'm happy for them. But I'm just more happy to see AXW honoring it's past/ current Euro champs in this battle. One thing I had suggested to Mongo...yearly Euro battles.
Like the Scorpion Classic, make it an annual event. Hell I'll even chip in to write it. Book a few guys be the winner gets to be the Euro Champ for the year or whatever. AXW made something real special with that classic, if nothing else I'd like to see that continued. The belt can be a bonus.
But whoever wins this match, whoever ends up with the strap, I don't think any of the four of us are entering other than the fact we get to have one awesome blowout finale.
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Sept 29, 2019 20:47:40 GMT -5
Right. So I've stayed out of shit 99% of the time, but I keep getting dragged back into this publicly, so I feel like I'm gonna say something. For upwards of a year (maybe more), AWF has taken shit publicly from people in the Discord. And all the while, the admin team (me/Kuroi/Teeps, Caff wasn't even on board yet) had a policy of "just don't respond". It was when, primarily, AXW staff and Discord mods were taking opportunities to take potshots at AWF as a fed. And every day, we'd hear shit, we'd take the shit, then we'd sit on our hands in an effort to be "diplomatic". So...we just let it slide, kept being fine, kinda just took it on the chin and would privately bitch about it in our AWF fedhead chat and vent our frustrations there. We would get a ton of shit from Mongo like "oh hey, just so you know, people on Discord are complaining about AWF". So we'd make changes to deal with it, even if they left the AWF fedheads unhappy. Put up with it for over a year. Then, we add Caffrey to the team. He's a hothead, and we knew that, but we didn't know the drama magnet he'd be in the Discord. Privately, Kuroi and I have been coaching Caffrey on when to let things go, not respond, etc. because we didn't want it to reflect poorly on us when he would explode. I don't dig into the drama much, I scroll past it all most of the time. The few times I *have* seen Caffrey exploding, or the times me/Kuroi have talked him down, it has looked very much like certain people on the Discord baiting him out by taking potshots. And knowing that Caff has a short fuse, those potshots got their desired effect -- he exploded. The running refrain I've heard is a tacit acknowledgement of "Oh yes, I bait him" or "Oh yes, I take potshots", always immediately undercut by "But he took it to another level!" Yes, that's valid. But it seems the scrutiny is never turned on the people who bait him. It's just results-oriented thinking. It allows people to skirt the line by baiting someone, then whining and crying when their bait has the exact intended effect. I approached Mongo a few days (weeks?) ago about how I thought the Discord needed to be more closely aligned with the site. The refrain from XHF admins has always been "well, the Discord isn't official, so complain to Rob or someone". Then, suddenly, it became "Oh, the AWF admins are responsible for keeping Caffrey under control because he's causing problems on the Discord". Up until this point, never has moderation of our users in discussion been a responsibility of the fedhead team. It felt a lot like passing the buck. And considering we got whole "BUT THE DISCORD ISN'T OFFICIAL" response when we brought up how Rob and others were shitting on AWF all the time, it felt like a double standard. So, I made a suggestion: let's make the Discord official. Bring everything in one place. My main goal was to have one place where AWF admins could chat, mixed into the server. The issue is that if the XHF admins don't own the server... that meant Price/Rob/whoever else was a Discord admin could see the secret admin chat. I suggested to Mongo he get the keys to the Discord turned over and have user roles match site roles so everything could be in one simple place. (IE... the same way things are setup here... XHF admins can see all backstage fedhead forums and comment on them, but it's just them + the fedheads). A couple days ago, I was discussing politics in the Discord. Scorps (who I had literally never interacted with until this point) shows up and says NO POLITICS, so I ask why, suggest a channel for politics. I was told it causes fights and it was too messy. So it sounded to me like... the Discord mods didn't want to...you know... moderate the Discord. They'd rather take everyone's toys away than remove problematic users from the channel. To Rob's credit, when I reached out to him about this, he heard me and said he would personally pitch the idea to Mongo et al. Which is even more confusing... if the Discord isn't official, why did it need to be discussed with admins? (Note that I may have misunderstood and by "admins" he could've meant "Discord admins", I suppose). Then last night, I get invited to a new server for XHF, run by Mongo. Great. I suggest a few channel ideas that I could propose... I get told no, this isn't gonna be that. This is gonna be a secondary Discord that operates in conjunction with the other one, at which point, I was completely turned off to the idea because splintering the community's OOC chat stuff is stupid. As Mongo said... "think of this like the cafe in the lobby. i'm not trying to compete with/ get rid of the bar across the street". Except, creating a second Discord is *literally* competing with the other one. My response? "Splintering the community seems really bad". I'm posting this here because earlier, I got accused of being a liar because I told Rob I didn't support splintering the community, and then apparently Rob was told by Mongo or someone that I was 100% in favor of the idea. Why can't we just have the takeover of the other server? As Mongo put it... "can't take over and fire everyone there- plus they're still my friends too so there's that." Right. So my complaints of things being the old boys club just resulted in keeping the old boys club in place and splintering the community. SETH SHUT UP WHAT'S THE RUNDOWN JESUS FUCKING CHRISTI hear you. The story from my POV is this: Discord was unofficial. When AWF was being shat on and baited by members of the community, we sat on our hands and did nothing, because admins told us it was unofficial and to go complain...to the people who were doing the baiting and shitting. Hell, even tonight, Rob got in radio chat and publicly broadcasted a conversation we were having privately, then went off and shit on Kuroi and Caffrey (which Kuroi sat silently and just took) but when Caffrey started responding, Caff got the ban. We've shrugged and have kept it that way for a year. Then we add a fedhead who has a penchant for dishing it out as much as he takes it, and people got pissed off about it. Now, the buck was passed to me/Kuroi (I guess Teeps too) to be responsible for chaperoning Caffrey. My suggestions to Mongo resulted in, first, just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic by making new room and giving the existing Discord mods power and authority to capriciously ban anyone they want who disagreed with them. Upon further complaints after the politics channel flair up, this resulted in...splintering the community by making a feckless new Discord with no real purpose because Mongo didn't want to annoy his friends. I’m sorry you feel AWF is getting shit in all the time. I’ve been purposely staying out of any of that y’all since I came back because I have problems with someone on the team. I would like to correct though that you are leaving something out. You were told by Mongo and Rob no politics on a more direct manner before I said what’s i said. The way you purpose it I just came in and started yelling. There was no politics or religion for a reason. You ignored three times being told no. Glad it’s been resolved. Hope we can see what we can do to make you feel better about what’s happening. Just know even if we are direct about whatever not happening we are still talking about it behind the scenes. incorrect. i hadn't even been in the chat until i popped in and you came in yelling about politics. maybe you're thinking of caffrey
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Sept 29, 2019 20:56:14 GMT -5
Seth, I did you dirty last night, but I think you did me as well, and first. You told me you didn’t want to split the board, and then you ran to the new discord. However you wanna dress that up that’s not cool. You’re point essentially boiled down to I don’t wanna split the board but whilst you and a few others are in charge I’ll do it anyway. You won’t convince me otherwise I’m that. People are pissed though, and me reading a chunk of our DMs was partly to give those people the education as to what’s happened here. I didn't lie to you. I didn't want to splinter the community. I wanted a handover of the Discord so roles/permissions could be established, or I wanted an actual "official" Discord that is endorsed as such and create it that way and have everyone migrate. When it was revealed that the new Discord was just a half-measure (and believe me, nobody consulted me on anything), I have made it very clear how I've felt about it in that new Discord. I didn't lie to you, and I'm still not lying to you. I don't want the discussion community splintered. And to be honest, you justifying reading our private conversation out loud and broadcasting for all to hear under the guise of having a heart-to-heart with me is soulless, shameful, and yet another example of why I am incredulous that you are in charge of anything on the Discord. It's juvenile, bush league BS. (I saw after this you were de-adminned and you've left, so that's a step)
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Sept 29, 2019 22:54:53 GMT -5
Let's go back over this because apparently more than just you is still upset over it:Right now, if someone came to you and said I had 30 guys who wanted to join XHF, based on all of the drama going around right now, would you tell them to come in, or would you tell them hey that you didn't think it was a good decision at that time? I think if you're a man of the moral character I believe you to be, you'd say yeah, not right now, it's kinda toxic, stay away. I was approached by BronsamBonsai, an e/feds reddit user, and asked my opinion on your potential merger. Bonsai and I have become friends because we survived all of that drama, and we have grown to respect each other as users. He asked me what I thought about you and your company, and morally, I sat there and argued with myself for at least a day before deciding to tell him about: 1) Your long, long history of plagarizing, which has since continued since we even had this conversation, when you plagarized someone's top ten list on the Reddit and didn't even take take the name "Trinity Wrestling" off of it. As much as I have problems and arguments with people, I can not get on board with that. You received a lifetime ban from AXW that was only lifted because of the last show, because you did it so often and got caught. That is NOT what I want people to think of when they think of the XHF. That is also why I called you out in public when you did that. We are being held to the highest standard in the e/feds Reddit world because we are the #1, the New York Yankees, and the rest of the community even to this day still begrudgingly hates us/downvotes us a bit. Anytime any of us missteps, as happened with vasty (sorry vasty), we are labeled as all of us being whatever the crime was. If this thread were out in public right now, we would all be judged as toxic dickheads and no one would want to be here. Your history of plagarism is something I can not endorse. I wanted to get this up top because it shows some of the consistency issues people have brought up. For those who haven't notice, AWF was lowered a slot. The reason is because I care about what people see on the board- the board is the first thing a new person sees and it's where the real official business is supposed to happen. In one of the feds that is currently not on the discord, there was some discussion of joining another discord- one that advertised other feds. At that point I chimed in that they should check out the Network's discord. Again, this is a fed not involved in any of the issues: an AWF admin then decided to come in with a snide, passive-aggressive comment about the need for an official discord. From what I've seen, nobody from that fed has joined our discord. Not blaming that AWF admin, just saying that it didn't help and it was out of line to bring off-board issues to people untouched by it; that's like an anti-advertisement. So I filed a formal complaint with Kuroi over his administrator and said that said admin represented the fed and needed to be managed better or there'd be repercussions. I like giving lots of chances but there's been a strong push- largely from AWF admins for there to be more accountability. Ok, so I said I'd lower the AWF a slot if they couldn't get the troublesome admin in line in public areas. Said admin then decided to vent his frustrations/defend himself- about this matter I had kept private- in the shoutbox. Again bringing up the fed that had nothing to do with any of the base issues. So I enacted the repercussions. The response I got was 1. That I was passing the buck and 2. that it was a personal problem with the admin, not the fed's problem. But here we have an AWF admin saying that Duke's actions represent the XHF Network as a whole. This would agree with my decisions and feelings about lowering AWF's slot due to poor admin control, as it reflected badly on the fed- which in turn reflected badly on the Network where it was the top slot. Likewise, when Rob was out of line the discord admins de-admined him and even muted him because he was out of line. He had made a public spectacle and it was dealt with by the other staffers. I was the one who kept saying to people, "If you push for stronger regulation it will come back on you" and that's what ended up happening- yet the response was that it wasn't their problem. I could have temp banned that admin- probably 2 weeks for making a fuss in public when formally asked to stop doing that. But I felt that lowering the AWF's slot was a better slap on the wrist because it'd be less damaging than losing an admin for a show. I want it to be known that throughout all of this, Kuroi has been an absolute gentleman. That's a reflection on his ability as an owner and a good reflection on the fed (AWF) he represents. But yeah, that's the story. And Caff is right about us all representing the Network, and many of us represent our feds. What we do in public gets seen by outsiders and new people and that's why I'm leery of problems on the board and am very sensitive to it. I don't agree that it's wise to anti-advertise because telling people not to come sticks. A guy can come, see there's problems, leave, and come back later. But if a fed admin says "don't come here" then that's gonna stick. If a person doesn't like it here, they're more than ok to leave or take a break. But let them make that decision, we shouldn't push or suggest or force anyone out when the whole goal of the Network is to put fedding under one roof. So basically you were going to ban me for two weeks for defending myself after suggesting you make an official Discord. which you ended up doing anyway It was more mocking you and your insistence that the Discord wasn't official, yet using it very obviously as the (un)official hangout zone and how backward your logic was
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Sept 29, 2019 23:00:21 GMT -5
And like, yeah, Mongo, we've probably made fun of you a step too much and I'm sure we've been a giant fucking headache lately, I'm sorry for that. Legit.
We're probably going to keep chatting for another few days, but all eyes are on you.
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Post by Venom 🕷 on Sept 29, 2019 23:40:39 GMT -5
I’m sorry you feel AWF is getting shit in all the time. I’ve been purposely staying out of any of that y’all since I came back because I have problems with someone on the team. I would like to correct though that you are leaving something out. You were told by Mongo and Rob no politics on a more direct manner before I said what’s i said. The way you purpose it I just came in and started yelling. There was no politics or religion for a reason. You ignored three times being told no. Glad it’s been resolved. Hope we can see what we can do to make you feel better about what’s happening. Just know even if we are direct about whatever not happening we are still talking about it behind the scenes. incorrect. i hadn't even been in the chat until i popped in and you came in yelling about politics. maybe you're thinking of caffrey I’m not incorrect. Rob came to me and thanked me for having his back right after. Maybe you completely ignored it.
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Sept 29, 2019 23:48:58 GMT -5
Hey bud Just gonna post some screenshots here since you're committed to sticking your fingers in your ears here's my first post of the day: then i pissed off for two hours. reading it now, caffrey and rob went at it during those two hours, which i didn't read at the time, because i never go back and read anything. then i came back in two hours later. And that's where I got banned. So, no, I wasn't warned. I came in wanting to talk about the impeachment inquiry, Mongo made a comment about how the Nitro booster channel exists, I pointed out that Mav & Dylan didn't want to hear my shit. Then i left for two hours while Caff & Rob had it out. Then I came back two hours later, me/Caff calmly carried on a discussion about politics, then you came in yelling NO POLITICS and trigger-banned me for asking for a place to discuss it. Rob never told me no politics. Mongo never even told me no politics, he just suggested a channel for me to discuss it in with literally just Mav & Dylan, who didn't care. Then I came back hours later excitedly discussing the ongoings of the day and you showed up and banned me. Now let's see if you'll be the bigger man, admit you were wrong, and stop trying to pretend like you were somehow justified.
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Sept 29, 2019 23:52:27 GMT -5
And like as a note... the idea of "oh, we can't have a politics channel because people fight" literally flies in the face of Mongo being like "there's a politics channel for Discord boosters". So the chain of logic there is....you can only talk about politics if you pay to boost the Discord. Alright.
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Post by Venom 🕷 on Sept 29, 2019 23:57:40 GMT -5
That doesn’t go back far enough. I’m not hosting screenshots on my phone over this. I did it based off what I saw. The screenshots are on discord.
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Post by Venom 🕷 on Sept 29, 2019 23:58:27 GMT -5
And like as a note... the idea of "oh, we can't have a politics channel because people fight" literally flies in the face of Mongo being like "there's a politics channel for Discord boosters". So the chain of logic there is....you can only talk about politics if you pay to boost the Discord. Alright. That wasn’t up to me. If it was up to me there’d be no religion or politics at all.
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Sept 30, 2019 0:01:06 GMT -5
For the record, here are the screenshots that Venom says I didn't post: Three things: 1) I already posted the first one and addressed it in my post. Mongo was suggesting I post in the Nitro channel because the politics channel was locked. I was pointing out nobody wanted to hear about it in the Nitro channel. That isn't telling me there's a blanket rule of no politics -- especially because the Dem debates have been discussed in the Discord previously. 2) The second one I wasn't even around for, so I'm not sure how this is relevant to me being warned. 3) We have a Discord admin who wants to complain about "hosting images", despite the fact that Discord automatically hosts the images for you. All you have to do is link it. And this is someone in charge of the Discord.
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Post by Robbie A on Sept 30, 2019 1:17:57 GMT -5
Seth, I did you dirty last night, but I think you did me as well, and first. You told me you didn’t want to split the board, and then you ran to the new discord. However you wanna dress that up that’s not cool. You’re point essentially boiled down to I don’t wanna split the board but whilst you and a few others are in charge I’ll do it anyway. You won’t convince me otherwise I’m that. People are pissed though, and me reading a chunk of our DMs was partly to give those people the education as to what’s happened here. I didn't lie to you. I didn't want to splinter the community. I wanted a handover of the Discord so roles/permissions could be established, or I wanted an actual "official" Discord that is endorsed as such and create it that way and have everyone migrate. When it was revealed that the new Discord was just a half-measure (and believe me, nobody consulted me on anything), I have made it very clear how I've felt about it in that new Discord. I didn't lie to you, and I'm still not lying to you. I don't want the discussion community splintered. And to be honest, you justifying reading our private conversation out loud and broadcasting for all to hear under the guise of having a heart-to-heart with me is soulless, shameful, and yet another example of why I am incredulous that you are in charge of anything on the Discord. It's juvenile, bush league BS. (I saw after this you were de-adminned and you've left, so that's a step) You wanted new admins, rightly or wrongly, when you didn’t get it you went for the new board. That’s pretty clear, and the fact that you want to critique my maturity off the back of that is almost laughable. People were pissed at the discovery of the new discord. Pissed at people like you. You don’t seem a bit sorry about it though. But nah I’m deflecting from me right now. Listen you can call me all the clever words to avoid name calling all you like but I already know I’m a ruthless bastard when it comes to stuff like that. I did you dirty, I apologise for that but if you’re so headstrong about all this that you’ve done nothing wrong yourself then there’s nowt else for us to discuss.
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Sept 30, 2019 2:13:29 GMT -5
I didn't go for shit, Rob. I made my complaints to Mongo, got silence, then there's a new Discord that I assumed was being created due to my complaints. I'm not sorry that a new Discord was created, because I had nothing to do with it being created and only found out after the fact, and got invited to it and discovered it at the same time several other people did. I wasn't consulted on this, it's not my creation, and your desperate attempts to tie it to me are, honestly, quite sad. You need a scapegoat to blame for the fact that Mongo and his admins fucked up, and you see more juice to be squeezed in targeting me for it, because you've found the easy way to tie everything I do to Caffrey, which you know will get people's jimmies rustled. That's why you broadcasted everything to the radio chat when I was debating with you about having not been presented with reasons why Caffrey has acted out unprovoked. If what you told me is true, and admins told you I'm the big supporter and 100% on board with this stupid fucking Discord, then that's bullshit and I'll leave it to you to call out whichever admin lied to you. Or you can keep hiding behind this aura of using me as a scapegoat.
I'm not gonna apologize for suggesting we modernize and then having people misinterpret me. I had ONE conversation with Mongo before any of this happened when I asked Mongo if he'd just hear me out on Discord, said my peace, and that was it. We moved on to Mongo's suggestions for how the /r/efeds subreddit should be moderated. I had no further conversations about a Discord or anything of the sort until I got randomly invited to a new one, then got told it was a half-measure, and promptly ignored it. And then you messaged me in the middle of the night about how I lied to you, with such wild accusations, and I had no clue what you were talking about. I took time out of my night hanging out with actual people to try to set the record straight, only to find out you were half-cocked in a live voice chat and broadcasting everything.
So no, Rob, I won't take any of it back. I had no interactions with you prior to this shit, despite Caffrey and Kuroi telling me how you were. I stayed out of it. You reached out to me, calling me a liar, and I sat down and tried to address it. And in return, you broadcast my shit to a bunch of people and controlled the narrative. That kinda duplicity and immaturity can kindly stay out of my life. People were pissed at me...because why, exactly? Because I made a suggestion that we modernize, and in return, Mongo went off and created a new server that didn't even remotely meet the issues I was addressing? Because some XHF admins apparently gave you half-cocked information that I was supporting the new Discord 100% and I was on board? Because various vague "people" were mad at me, like I was the cause of this new server or that it was something I wanted? It's all horseshit.
I absolutely did nothing wrong. And I'll stand by it till the end of time. I voiced my very well-founded concerns about the Discord, then walked away and heard nothing back. Then suddenly a new Discord gets created and everyone's super mad about it...and I had nothing to do with it.
The thing is that I'm 30, I work 60 hours a week, and I am adult enough about stupid Discord drama to not wade into it like you, even when Caffrey is being supremely unreasonable. It's why I've stayed out of it for the past year while I've had every single achievement I've earned during my time in XHF constantly under attack from people like Jack & Bobby, Dragon, Mav, and others. I care about putting out good shows for AWF and occasionally, when I have free time between things, I check in and interact in the Discord, because I happen to sometimes enjoy talking to you people. See, my identity isn't tied to being an admin in some community I stopped actively contributing to years ago... my free time is tied to helping build AWF, and by extension, XHF, into something awesome and progressive and modern that I can be proud of taking up my free time. It's why I've not once suggested I become an admin, even though I think it'd be very difficult for anyone here to explain a reason why I shouldn't be. Because feckless power doesn't fuel me. I don't get off on capriciously banning people who happen to disagree with me. Not my bag, sorry.
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Post by Bobby Barratt on Sept 30, 2019 2:32:22 GMT -5
Umm.. attack from me? Why am I being mentioned?
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Post by Mongo the Destroyer on Sept 30, 2019 3:41:37 GMT -5
Alright, so Seth, you say you haven't ever asked to be a mod or admin on the discord- this is true. However, what you have said belies that you think it should be your role. Caff too, and I'm pretty sure you guys have work-shopped how to approach these since your angles have matched up in pms. Before you argue that there's no evidence of that- that's not the focus and this isn't mafia. You've tried to get the discord admins ousted, you've tried to get the discord handed over to me so I could oust them, and when I made the official discord apparently consulting you was something I needed to do?
Ok, so if you think you can do a better job, then let me give you- and anyone who wants to be in power on the discord, some scenarios. That's the focus on this, I wanna know how you'd handle these since apparently they aren't being handled well.
1. A member of the discord flames out, drunk and angry about something that occurred in dms. Because of the discord they're gonna leave the Network. How do you resolve the issue?
2. Two members get into a spat in one of the public areas of the discord. It's loud, maybe drunk, and there's a whole lot of pride at stake- oh and feds. Two feds are at stake because as it turns out they're both fed heads and whoever "loses" (or feels like he lost) this argument is defo closing his fed. How do you resolve this fight?
3. You've got a member who spams- pretty much all the time. He's not breaking any rules per-say but man it's really annoying. People are having deep but friendly conversations and he keeps interjecting nonsense to get attention and it's taking up large portions of the page and the conversation keeps getting buried in his silliness. Again, there's nothing offensive; just really friggin' annoying. What do you do?
4. You've got a member who's dropping bigoted language. When told to stop the member claims they're a member of that group/minority- true or false you don't know because this is the internet and we're literally based around a game where you play somebody else. Maybe they're dropping racially insensitive language, maybe they're dropping homophobic slurs, maybe it's gender-biased garbage. After being warned that member continues to use said language and delete it quickly; playing a game with the rules in hopes they can get a rise out of the guys and the staff. You don't have lightning reflexes so any evidence is immediately destroyed. What do you do?
5. You've got a staffer who's a hot head and flames out on a member. That member, also bustling with pride, begins flaming everyone around them assuming they're involved when they were telling the staffer to calm down. The staffer signs off immediately and you've got a member who's lashing out in every direction. What's the resolution?
6. You're asleep, eating, working, or spending time with people you love in irl offline- or anything offline. During that time a fight occurs on the discord and you only come in at the end or maybe even after the damage is done. There's plenty of witnesses but in the end it seems like both were probably drunk/full of pride and had it out over something others don't think is a deal- but the two parties absolutely do. How do you go about resolving it?
7. One of your staffers enacted a punishment on two guys after a fight. One of them is messaging you every one to two minutes to reverse the decision; for an hour. They alternate between begging, threatening to leave the Network, and ordering you. What do you do?
8. You've done your best to answer these issues, but some members still think you did a terrible job. And they let you know, with curse words, entitled language, and insults to boot. Were you wrong? What do you do now?
The discord gets rowdy, and none of us have the time to be there all day. And the one moment we look away to write an rp or do a show, something will happen. The easy answer is "I never said I wanted to be a mod or admin." But if a person can't or refuses to answer these kind of questions and situations constructively (not "well I certainly wouldn't do what was done")- maybe they aren't the right person to tell others they're doing a bad job.
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