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Post by Mongo the Destroyer on Sept 28, 2019 23:34:07 GMT -5
So, for those not in the know, you don't need to know and can leave this post because I don't want your commentary.
For those in the know, there's been issues on the discord involving various people and it's spilled....just like everywhere, lol
What I'm proposing is this. If you're having an issue, address it here. It's fine to mention people you're specifically having problems with and what the problems are exactly. The goal is to figure out the scope and who all we should get together for some sort of hash session (not drugs hash though, like discussion towards resolution).
BUT. Ground rules. No insults, no curses. If you can't formulate an argument without them then you're already in the wrong for not being able to properly express your issues.
SECOND. If this doesn't have anything to do with you and you don't have a serious issue, stay out of it, period.
Alright, so who wants to hash this out?
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Post by Clipper on Sept 28, 2019 23:38:12 GMT -5
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Post by Mongo the Destroyer on Sept 28, 2019 23:44:59 GMT -5
Well, Drago is banned. Next?
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Post by ForeverKuroi on Sept 29, 2019 0:01:08 GMT -5
As a general note, there is a lot more than meets the eye.
Just because you don't see something being done doesn't mean it's not happening.
The AWF absolutely listens to constructive criticism and you are being heard.
However, things don't change overnight, but we are always looking to get past potential and ongoing issues.
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Sept 29, 2019 0:02:17 GMT -5
I say this 100% seriously:
You know what the problems are, Mongo.
It's your turn to fix them.
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Sept 29, 2019 0:12:56 GMT -5
Tonight I was kicked into the jail for telling a member to stfu (sorry Mav, mea culpa there) when they were antagonizing me after I spent five minutes getting called a child, a jackass, an asshole, being told that I was only not getting banned because of the AWF, and a barrage of other insults by a network admin, someone in charge of keeping peace and order, on the Discord. For the record, that admin was Rob Arnold, a man who notoriously hates all things AWF and who picks fights more than even Price does in the Discord.
When I then was put in jail, I asked to get out, demanded to get out, got mad about being stuck in there, and then did what I was told to do: take a break and chill. I waited 15 minutes patiently, said my please and thank you, DMed the mod that put me in (apparently admins are playing pass the buck and only the admin that jails someone can undo it? seems fishy) and then that DM made it clear that he still was not going to let me out, which I saw as an act of hatred and another example of how wickedly bent the rules are in the current Discord. That was Dust, for the record.
I am not perfect. Oh boy am I not, and I expect there to be a laundry list of shitting on me to come. But for crying out loud, when the double standard is that obvious, it makes me really upset. The fact that I'm still in jail as of this complaint is quite frankly obscene, and in reality, a very poor example of the XHF we're trying to recruit for.
Why would I ever recruit someone to a federation where if you run afoul of the administrative staff you can be called horrible fucking names and be silenced the moment you feel you don't want to take it anymore? Why would I want to be here? I sit on these questions tonight and don't have an answer.
It's kind of clear to me that the Discord admins don't really want to admin. Every one of their arguments I've heard right now is "hey you guys made us admin, we didn't want to do it either" -- so if they don't want to, then don't make them. But if we're making them do it, then they have to follow the "rules" of the Discord, and then some on top. If they can't follow those rules, then they shouldn't be admins.
I can't say this more civilly but I'm expecting apologies and my chance to talk in radio at some point because I feel like I was robbed of my chance to set the record even remotely close to straight.
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Post by Drago on Sept 29, 2019 0:15:32 GMT -5
How to kill one's inspiration to engage in topics where they feel like they'd be a an issue - ban them for posting a joke a thousand others would probably make, letting them know any type of emotional investment is worthless when they're one joke away from getting banned.
If you've got beef with me, let me know on discord. I've apologized to a shit ton of people already behind the scenes and try to be accountable when I fuck up. I'm open to listening.
If the choice is between hearing words from people upset with me and having admins breathing down my neck about every single thing, reminding me that every single RP or bit of effort I put into an RP is pointless because whatever I'm doing with any of these stories can disappear because some guy in Korea taking it the wrong way, or that I'm going to feel the effects of over moderation from our admin team, I'd rather deal with those complaints.
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Post by Seth Dillinger on Sept 29, 2019 0:22:46 GMT -5
Right. So I've stayed out of shit 99% of the time, but I keep getting dragged back into this publicly, so I feel like I'm gonna say something.
For upwards of a year (maybe more), AWF has taken shit publicly from people in the Discord. And all the while, the admin team (me/Kuroi/Teeps, Caff wasn't even on board yet) had a policy of "just don't respond". It was when, primarily, AXW staff and Discord mods were taking opportunities to take potshots at AWF as a fed. And every day, we'd hear shit, we'd take the shit, then we'd sit on our hands in an effort to be "diplomatic". So...we just let it slide, kept being fine, kinda just took it on the chin and would privately bitch about it in our AWF fedhead chat and vent our frustrations there. We would get a ton of shit from Mongo like "oh hey, just so you know, people on Discord are complaining about AWF". So we'd make changes to deal with it, even if they left the AWF fedheads unhappy. Put up with it for over a year.
Then, we add Caffrey to the team. He's a hothead, and we knew that, but we didn't know the drama magnet he'd be in the Discord. Privately, Kuroi and I have been coaching Caffrey on when to let things go, not respond, etc. because we didn't want it to reflect poorly on us when he would explode. I don't dig into the drama much, I scroll past it all most of the time. The few times I *have* seen Caffrey exploding, or the times me/Kuroi have talked him down, it has looked very much like certain people on the Discord baiting him out by taking potshots. And knowing that Caff has a short fuse, those potshots got their desired effect -- he exploded. The running refrain I've heard is a tacit acknowledgement of "Oh yes, I bait him" or "Oh yes, I take potshots", always immediately undercut by "But he took it to another level!" Yes, that's valid. But it seems the scrutiny is never turned on the people who bait him. It's just results-oriented thinking. It allows people to skirt the line by baiting someone, then whining and crying when their bait has the exact intended effect.
I approached Mongo a few days (weeks?) ago about how I thought the Discord needed to be more closely aligned with the site. The refrain from XHF admins has always been "well, the Discord isn't official, so complain to Rob or someone". Then, suddenly, it became "Oh, the AWF admins are responsible for keeping Caffrey under control because he's causing problems on the Discord". Up until this point, never has moderation of our users in discussion been a responsibility of the fedhead team. It felt a lot like passing the buck. And considering we got whole "BUT THE DISCORD ISN'T OFFICIAL" response when we brought up how Rob and others were shitting on AWF all the time, it felt like a double standard. So, I made a suggestion: let's make the Discord official. Bring everything in one place. My main goal was to have one place where AWF admins could chat, mixed into the server. The issue is that if the XHF admins don't own the server... that meant Price/Rob/whoever else was a Discord admin could see the secret admin chat. I suggested to Mongo he get the keys to the Discord turned over and have user roles match site roles so everything could be in one simple place. (IE... the same way things are setup here... XHF admins can see all backstage fedhead forums and comment on them, but it's just them + the fedheads).
A couple days ago, I was discussing politics in the Discord. Scorps (who I had literally never interacted with until this point) shows up and says NO POLITICS, so I ask why, suggest a channel for politics. I was told it causes fights and it was too messy. So it sounded to me like... the Discord mods didn't want to...you know...moderate the Discord. They'd rather take everyone's toys away than remove problematic users from the channel. To Rob's credit, when I reached out to him about this, he heard me and said he would personally pitch the idea to Mongo et al. Which is even more confusing... if the Discord isn't official, why did it need to be discussed with admins? (Note that I may have misunderstood and by "admins" he could've meant "Discord admins", I suppose).
Then last night, I get invited to a new server for XHF, run by Mongo. Great. I suggest a few channel ideas that I could propose... I get told no, this isn't gonna be that. This is gonna be a secondary Discord that operates in conjunction with the other one, at which point, I was completely turned off to the idea because splintering the community's OOC chat stuff is stupid. As Mongo said... "think of this like the cafe in the lobby. i'm not trying to compete with/ get rid of the bar across the street". Except, creating a second Discord is *literally* competing with the other one. My response? "Splintering the community seems really bad". I'm posting this here because earlier, I got accused of being a liar because I told Rob I didn't support splintering the community, and then apparently Rob was told by Mongo or someone that I was 100% in favor of the idea. Why can't we just have the takeover of the other server? As Mongo put it... "can't take over and fire everyone there- plus they're still my friends too so there's that." Right. So my complaints of things being the old boys club just resulted in keeping the old boys club in place and splintering the community.
SETH SHUT UP WHAT'S THE RUNDOWN JESUS FUCKING CHRIST I hear you.
The story from my POV is this: Discord was unofficial. When AWF was being shat on and baited by members of the community, we sat on our hands and did nothing, because admins told us it was unofficial and to go complain...to the people who were doing the baiting and shitting. Hell, even tonight, Rob got in radio chat and publicly broadcasted a conversation we were having privately, then went off and shit on Kuroi and Caffrey (which Kuroi sat silently and just took) but when Caffrey started responding, Caff got the ban. We've shrugged and have kept it that way for a year. Then we add a fedhead who has a penchant for dishing it out as much as he takes it, and people got pissed off about it. Now, the buck was passed to me/Kuroi (I guess Teeps too) to be responsible for chaperoning Caffrey. My suggestions to Mongo resulted in, first, just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic by making new room and giving the existing Discord mods power and authority to capriciously ban anyone they want who disagreed with them. Upon further complaints after the politics channel flair up, this resulted in...splintering the community by making a feckless new Discord with no real purpose because Mongo didn't want to annoy his friends.
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Post by Drago on Sept 29, 2019 0:25:59 GMT -5
I also feel like slowmode is an excuse to not moderate and also not to find people who would want to moderate.
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Sept 29, 2019 0:30:13 GMT -5
(Side question: Most people like Bobby, most people like Kira. Why can't we have them as mods?)
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Post by Mav. on Sept 29, 2019 0:43:19 GMT -5
(Side question: Most people like Bobby, most people like Kira. Why can't we have them as mods?) (There's also me, you just bring out the worst in me sometimes, I'm actually a pretty chill mod in some other servers.)
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Post by anthonycaffrey on Sept 29, 2019 0:46:45 GMT -5
(Side question: Most people like Bobby, most people like Kira. Why can't we have them as mods?) (There's also me, you just bring out the worst in me sometimes, I'm actually a pretty chill mod in some other servers.) I want to say this politely: I don't want you as mod. You have taken to antagonizing me at every level lately, taking just as many potshots as everyone else, even though it's not at full capacity. If you have a problem with me, please say so + EXPLAIN, but please stop pretending you don't have one, because the hypocrisy from someone I like and appreciate is kinda astounding, man.
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MYŌJIN
.::XHF Superstar::.
FKA Draven | Former X*Crown Champion | Former XHF JHW Champion
Posts: 836
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Post by MYŌJIN on Sept 29, 2019 1:08:45 GMT -5
Listen up, Mongo. I'm going to make this blunt.
You have been passive and been sweeping a lot of these problems under the rug. Now, look where it's escalated to. It shouldn't even have to come to this, yet it has. I'm a sixteen-year-old with nothing better to do. I come to this to have fun. Fun. Not to run into a slow mode limit on general chat because someone had a heated argument and a mod doesn't want to actually deal with it properly.
Speaking of mods, some seem unfit, to be honest. Either A. they don't care nor want to actually moderate or B. they are biased about something and don't want to deal with something in a neutral manner.
Acting like everything is fine until it is not is exactly why it's gotten this bad. Ignoring it does not help and no, muting someone doesn't count as fixing the problem, that just makes the muted person feel like they've been wronged.
It's literally been only a few days since the last heated argument until today.
P.S. Banning someone for posting a harmless, little joke when they've invested their writings and creativity in this place is childish. Call me biased but I'd feel just as upset about that if it was someone else. You're willing to ban over that but not handle what's actually been going on?
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Post by Venom 🕷 on Sept 29, 2019 1:35:28 GMT -5
Right. So I've stayed out of shit 99% of the time, but I keep getting dragged back into this publicly, so I feel like I'm gonna say something. For upwards of a year (maybe more), AWF has taken shit publicly from people in the Discord. And all the while, the admin team (me/Kuroi/Teeps, Caff wasn't even on board yet) had a policy of "just don't respond". It was when, primarily, AXW staff and Discord mods were taking opportunities to take potshots at AWF as a fed. And every day, we'd hear shit, we'd take the shit, then we'd sit on our hands in an effort to be "diplomatic". So...we just let it slide, kept being fine, kinda just took it on the chin and would privately bitch about it in our AWF fedhead chat and vent our frustrations there. We would get a ton of shit from Mongo like "oh hey, just so you know, people on Discord are complaining about AWF". So we'd make changes to deal with it, even if they left the AWF fedheads unhappy. Put up with it for over a year. Then, we add Caffrey to the team. He's a hothead, and we knew that, but we didn't know the drama magnet he'd be in the Discord. Privately, Kuroi and I have been coaching Caffrey on when to let things go, not respond, etc. because we didn't want it to reflect poorly on us when he would explode. I don't dig into the drama much, I scroll past it all most of the time. The few times I *have* seen Caffrey exploding, or the times me/Kuroi have talked him down, it has looked very much like certain people on the Discord baiting him out by taking potshots. And knowing that Caff has a short fuse, those potshots got their desired effect -- he exploded. The running refrain I've heard is a tacit acknowledgement of "Oh yes, I bait him" or "Oh yes, I take potshots", always immediately undercut by "But he took it to another level!" Yes, that's valid. But it seems the scrutiny is never turned on the people who bait him. It's just results-oriented thinking. It allows people to skirt the line by baiting someone, then whining and crying when their bait has the exact intended effect. I approached Mongo a few days (weeks?) ago about how I thought the Discord needed to be more closely aligned with the site. The refrain from XHF admins has always been "well, the Discord isn't official, so complain to Rob or someone". Then, suddenly, it became "Oh, the AWF admins are responsible for keeping Caffrey under control because he's causing problems on the Discord". Up until this point, never has moderation of our users in discussion been a responsibility of the fedhead team. It felt a lot like passing the buck. And considering we got whole "BUT THE DISCORD ISN'T OFFICIAL" response when we brought up how Rob and others were shitting on AWF all the time, it felt like a double standard. So, I made a suggestion: let's make the Discord official. Bring everything in one place. My main goal was to have one place where AWF admins could chat, mixed into the server. The issue is that if the XHF admins don't own the server... that meant Price/Rob/whoever else was a Discord admin could see the secret admin chat. I suggested to Mongo he get the keys to the Discord turned over and have user roles match site roles so everything could be in one simple place. (IE... the same way things are setup here... XHF admins can see all backstage fedhead forums and comment on them, but it's just them + the fedheads). A couple days ago, I was discussing politics in the Discord. Scorps (who I had literally never interacted with until this point) shows up and says NO POLITICS, so I ask why, suggest a channel for politics. I was told it causes fights and it was too messy. So it sounded to me like... the Discord mods didn't want to...you know... moderate the Discord. They'd rather take everyone's toys away than remove problematic users from the channel. To Rob's credit, when I reached out to him about this, he heard me and said he would personally pitch the idea to Mongo et al. Which is even more confusing... if the Discord isn't official, why did it need to be discussed with admins? (Note that I may have misunderstood and by "admins" he could've meant "Discord admins", I suppose). Then last night, I get invited to a new server for XHF, run by Mongo. Great. I suggest a few channel ideas that I could propose... I get told no, this isn't gonna be that. This is gonna be a secondary Discord that operates in conjunction with the other one, at which point, I was completely turned off to the idea because splintering the community's OOC chat stuff is stupid. As Mongo said... "think of this like the cafe in the lobby. i'm not trying to compete with/ get rid of the bar across the street". Except, creating a second Discord is *literally* competing with the other one. My response? "Splintering the community seems really bad". I'm posting this here because earlier, I got accused of being a liar because I told Rob I didn't support splintering the community, and then apparently Rob was told by Mongo or someone that I was 100% in favor of the idea. Why can't we just have the takeover of the other server? As Mongo put it... "can't take over and fire everyone there- plus they're still my friends too so there's that." Right. So my complaints of things being the old boys club just resulted in keeping the old boys club in place and splintering the community. SETH SHUT UP WHAT'S THE RUNDOWN JESUS FUCKING CHRISTI hear you. The story from my POV is this: Discord was unofficial. When AWF was being shat on and baited by members of the community, we sat on our hands and did nothing, because admins told us it was unofficial and to go complain...to the people who were doing the baiting and shitting. Hell, even tonight, Rob got in radio chat and publicly broadcasted a conversation we were having privately, then went off and shit on Kuroi and Caffrey (which Kuroi sat silently and just took) but when Caffrey started responding, Caff got the ban. We've shrugged and have kept it that way for a year. Then we add a fedhead who has a penchant for dishing it out as much as he takes it, and people got pissed off about it. Now, the buck was passed to me/Kuroi (I guess Teeps too) to be responsible for chaperoning Caffrey. My suggestions to Mongo resulted in, first, just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic by making new room and giving the existing Discord mods power and authority to capriciously ban anyone they want who disagreed with them. Upon further complaints after the politics channel flair up, this resulted in...splintering the community by making a feckless new Discord with no real purpose because Mongo didn't want to annoy his friends. I’m sorry you feel AWF is getting shit in all the time. I’ve been purposely staying out of any of that y’all since I came back because I have problems with someone on the team. I would like to correct though that you are leaving something out. You were told by Mongo and Rob no politics on a more direct manner before I said what’s i said. The way you purpose it I just came in and started yelling. There was no politics or religion for a reason. You ignored three times being told no. Glad it’s been resolved. Hope we can see what we can do to make you feel better about what’s happening. Just know even if we are direct about whatever not happening we are still talking about it behind the scenes.
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Post by Mav. on Sept 29, 2019 1:36:45 GMT -5
(There's also me, you just bring out the worst in me sometimes, I'm actually a pretty chill mod in some other servers.) I want to say this politely: I don't want you as mod. You have taken to antagonizing me at every level lately, taking just as many potshots as everyone else, even though it's not at full capacity. If you have a problem with me, please say so + EXPLAIN, but please stop pretending you don't have one, because the hypocrisy from someone I like and appreciate is kinda astounding, man. Really? I wonder why, Caffrey. You, mate, have been causing nothing more than hell for everyone... nonstop arguing with everyone and then disobeying mod's orders when you're the one who's asking for the mods to be more hands on in the server. The whole X*Crown argument? That started when you brought up the fact you didn't want the crown having titles that don't have any history when the rules let any dead feds world title is allowed and those rules have been in place for the last 20 years? Many have stated it's a flaw with the crown but you decide not to listen and let this entire argument boil out. And that's just one of them! There's plenty of these petty fucking arguments that start with you on that discord.You have a short temper and you don't know how to control it, and honestly, you need to either leave the discord and come back a better man or leave the discord and stay on that stupid and fucking shitty "official" discord that means nothing more than a place for you to go when Rob/Price/any admin etc won't let you have your own way. I've noticed that last statement on a first hand experience as you posted this after being jailed tonight. EXHIBIT A:
EXHIBIT B: All we ask is of you to be a better person and can you do that? Not as of late. I remember when Hunter, Dylan, Dread etc told me about how toxic any GWA chat was and now I feel like this is it.
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