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Post by Bobby Barratt on Oct 1, 2019 5:23:32 GMT -5
I think it's important now for everyone to realise that what happened in the past has happened. There's no changing that now.
Caff, Robbie. I think the apologies you have are the only ones you're going to get now. None of you are going to stand down from your opinions and that's fine. We're adults and we can agree to disagree right?
It's time now to work on where we go from here. Let's start talking suggestions and fixes, not problems. The tiered system Seth suggested has been implemented and thanks to this thread, the discord is peaceful again.
So what are we thinking? Me? I think we stick to just the one discord server. Creating a second, while well intentioned can fracture the community. Mods are dropping right now and I think finding 2 separate sets of mods is going to be a logistical nightmare with the current turnover rate. I say keep it to one. Focus our efforts on turning this around.
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Post by La Familia Price on Oct 1, 2019 7:01:55 GMT -5
You missed the best part of that log with the gif I posted in response
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Post by Drago on Oct 1, 2019 9:53:53 GMT -5
...so is duke and the his racism thing still fly or...
He just made a topic being like sorry for stealing, Not sorry for making fun of black lives matter. This feels like when I talked about Adkins {No Means No} people in his rps, and mongo was like “that shouldn’t be happening” which was correct, but since it was happening kinda needed to be stopped. Is something happening with Duke or... nah? I saw he didn’t reply to anything here.
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Post by Bobby Barratt on Oct 1, 2019 9:58:54 GMT -5
...so is duke and the his racism thing still fly or... He just made a topic being like sorry for stealing, Not sorry for making fun of black lives matter. This feels like when I talked about Adkins {No Means No} people in his rps, and mongo was like “that shouldn’t be happening” which was correct, but since it was happening kinda needed to be stopped. Is something happening with Duke or... nah? I saw he didn’t reply to anything here. I'm just wondering here and please don't think im stirring the pot...is the gimmick offensive to you?
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Post by Drago on Oct 1, 2019 10:14:51 GMT -5
...so is duke and the his racism thing still fly or... He just made a topic being like sorry for stealing, Not sorry for making fun of black lives matter. This feels like when I talked about Adkins {No Means No} people in his rps, and mongo was like “that shouldn’t be happening” which was correct, but since it was happening kinda needed to be stopped. Is something happening with Duke or... nah? I saw he didn’t reply to anything here. I'm just wondering here and please don't think im stirring the pot...is the gimmick offensive to you? No sweat broski. Good faith here. My answer is two pronged: I haven't read a Duke RP since May and don't really care what he does. I think it's offensive, but I don't care. I mainly care because efedding historically has reflected wrestling. As someone who was efedding when I was 12 and seeing a lot of racism in wrestling and am now 25, I remember how horribly racist it was. Ask Caffrey about TWG's class graphics. I remember how EXTREME some of the sexism was and it boggles me that shit flew on TV. While I don't care about what Duke did, when I was sussing this place out (like many POC do before making an account to make sure this ain't another white hood meeting), I saw the Rob Arnolds, Bobby Barrats, Chris Cards, blase blah. Lil bit o Beanz. Had I saw 'Ganja Lives Matter', I would've dipped riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight on out. It isn't 'youre white don't RP black guys', its 'if you lack the nuance and depth to be incapable of thinking of POC in sheer stereotypes, maybe don't?' Especially given that both Danny and Duke, for alllllllllllllllllll of their faults, seem to feel like somewhat real characters. They feel complete. Then you look to Ganja and its like... fuck.
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Post by Bobby Barratt on Oct 1, 2019 10:38:33 GMT -5
I really appreciate the answer and how in depth you went. As I'm sure you've said in the past that you're mixed race right? So it was important to get feedback from someone who it may affect. Not that I can do much, but at least its recorded right?
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Post by ForeverKuroi on Oct 1, 2019 10:44:30 GMT -5
...so is duke and the his racism thing still fly or... He just made a topic being like sorry for stealing, Not sorry for making fun of black lives matter. This feels like when I talked about Adkins {No Means No} people in his rps, and mongo was like “that shouldn’t be happening” which was correct, but since it was happening kinda needed to be stopped. Is something happening with Duke or... nah? I saw he didn’t reply to anything here. It should be mentioned that Vastrix has absolutely since stopped that line of RPing. He's been doing the good thing by changing how he can stick to a good character with that kind of gimmick without crossing the line.
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Post by Dave D-Flipz on Oct 1, 2019 10:57:33 GMT -5
Ok so on the topic: I can't speak for Mongo or Randy but in my view I take the sit and watch approach. I don't want to stifle creativity but I am literally every oppressive majority in the world (White, male, cis, raised Christian, not poor [though not rich either], good childhood, both parents together, caring supportive family) I cannot in good conscience speak from a position of privilege to what is or isn't offensive to people. And as a scientist I use the scientific method.
Mongo and I both had misgivings about the characters when Duke first made them but chose to see how it played out. We've historically allowed the feds to police themselves such as with RSW's more extreme stuff. It's a niche and people are going to like what they like and as long as it's played correctly can be an outlet without being offensive. That said if anyone ever came to me and said something was offensive I'd immediately step up and start a conversation. It's important not to assume things are done in malice but also it's necessary to confront the behavior and teach people. So far this is the first complaint I've seen about Duke's characters and it's more of a suggestion. My take is, if the characters offend you (or you think they may if you read the RP) then bring it up for us to have a private sitdown between you two and us admins and figure out a solution. Again it seems the issue is more sterotyping than pure racism which admittedly does happen. And I think it's an issue that is more fixable than out and out malicious racist caricatures. A tweak may be needed more than a bludgeon if you catch my meaning
I will now kindly go back to wallowing in misery in my bathroom and then probably the misery of work. YAY CLOSING THE STORE!
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Post by Bobby Barratt on Oct 1, 2019 11:06:22 GMT -5
This was what I was getting at.
I'm not going to lie, when I first saw the gimmick outlined I was sceptical to say the least and could see what a fine line it was walking. But as Dave said, who am I to judge?
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Post by Drago on Oct 1, 2019 11:59:20 GMT -5
Yeah. I think there’s a fix. I don’t think this is the first time someone talked to duke about these guys, the women he had in SSS (like hype said, he reached out to him) or his convicts. If y’all wanna have a sit down I’m game. I think “it’s fantasy so no apology” kinda seems blind to the fact of who gets to enjoy efedding and who gets to enjoy wrestling vs those who don’t. Hell, that entire race storyline with kofi had me anxious because of how bad wwe is at handling stuff like this. I think there’s area for growth if he wants to bear it.
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Post by ForeverKuroi on Oct 1, 2019 12:30:55 GMT -5
I think a lot of this is just Duke's difficulty in developing characters. (No offense to Duke, but I sincerely think this could be part of the problem.)
When I started Storm, he was just a hardcore thug from the streets. He's black. There wasn't much else to him. Then I started developing him. I gave him a background. I gave him an inner voice. Slowly but surely, he became more than just a black guy from the streets.
For Duke, they're simply tropes. There's a prisoner guy, a cook, a guy who loves his family, a Russian guy, and a bunch of black people who love weed.
I know Danny Ray is somewhat developed. He has nuances. I only know a bit about Duke Kosloff. But most others are incredibly superficial, and that's the issue.
If he wants your characters to be black. Fine. That's OK. No one's saying he can't do that. I'm saying he can't play a black guy, but at least have a good hard heart to heart with yourself before you do - think about how it will look upon you and everything about you.
And just because something is fantasy doesn't mean it doesn't have real world implications.
If Michael Storm did nothing but ate watermelon, played a banjo and picked cotton, it'd be a huge blow to AWF and many of our members wouldn't want to join. I know Reck wouldn't be with me.
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Kira Izumi
J-ROK Staff
XHF's Resident Weeb
Posts: 5,920
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Post by Kira Izumi on Oct 1, 2019 15:02:15 GMT -5
personally i'm of the opinion no one should be censored or "held back" in a lack of better words. They should be allowed to do and say and make what they want. BUT also there's things that push and even sometimes cross lines. Not trying to bash anyone or take up for anyone at all, but if you're nothing but a one note stereotype isn't something that's going to be looked on fairly or as good.
If you are going to make a character or anything, i say ask your self a few questions first. Are real people just one note or just have one characteristic? Will my character be put in prison or jailed in real life if they did what they did in real life?
And don't say "oh this is fantasy and fan fiction so it doesn't matter if they're realistic or not" because for one it does matter and for two even if we are essentially writing fan fiction it's still grounded in reality. And if you're going to go on and say what about that dw/cw show on the moon? that show makes sense in the context of CW and they made sure to make it as realistic and legit as possible. If you go on to ask about subject 42, he's supposedly some mysterious creature or experiment from a government facility or something to that effect (if that's wrong i'm sorry i'm just going off what i've seen and infered).
If you want to go on about some of my characters, Ultra Kira is an alien from another planet, and yuki sakaraba is working with a multi realm/multi universal space alliance. but i make sure to do my best to keep those things with in the reality and realism of our xhf universe. I mean you can go wild and crazy with stuff like that, just make it make sense within the universe you're in, you know? you can do vampires, you can do zombies, or aliens, or ghosts or what ever the heck you want. Just make the rules for these characters and beings make sense. If your bringing them into our world and universe create back grounds and rules for them that would make sense with in our universe and world.
I'm going off topic maybe now, sorry for the rambling i do that allot. so uh... idk how to end this or what i'm talking about anymore. just be careful with what you make. don't just do one note or uber stereotypical characters, or do i can't tell you what to do. and be careful.
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Post by Bobby Barratt on Oct 1, 2019 15:19:42 GMT -5
personally i'm of the opinion no one should be censored or "held back" in a lack of better words. They should be allowed to do and say and make what they want. BUT also there's things that push and even sometimes cross lines. Not trying to bash anyone or take up for anyone at all, but if you're nothing but a one note stereotype isn't something that's going to be looked on fairly or as good. If you are going to make a character or anything, i say ask your self a few questions first. Are real people just one note or just have one characteristic? Will my character be put in prison or jailed in real life if they did what they did in real life? And don't say "oh this is fantasy and fan fiction so it doesn't matter if they're realistic or not" because for one it does matter and for two even if we are essentially writing fan fiction it's still grounded in reality. And if you're going to go on and say what about that dw/cw show on the moon? that show makes sense in the context of CW and they made sure to make it as realistic and legit as possible. If you go on to ask about subject 42, he's supposedly some mysterious creature or experiment from a government facility or something to that effect (if that's wrong i'm sorry i'm just going off what i've seen and infered). If you want to go on about some of my characters, Ultra Kira is an alien from another planet, and yuki sakaraba is working with a multi realm/multi universal space alliance. but i make sure to do my best to keep those things with in the reality and realism of our xhf universe. I mean you can go wild and crazy with stuff like that, just make it make sense within the universe you're in, you know? you can do vampires, you can do zombies, or aliens, or ghosts or what ever the heck you want. Just make the rules for these characters and beings make sense. If your bringing them into our world and universe create back grounds and rules for them that would make sense with in our universe and world. I'm going off topic maybe now, sorry for the rambling i do that allot. so uh... idk how to end this or what i'm talking about anymore. just be careful with what you make. don't just do one note or uber stereotypical characters, or do i can't tell you what to do. and be careful. I think this is a perfectly valid outlook, but the only gap I'd say is if that offends people or makes them uncomfortable. Hence me asking Drago earlier.
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Post by Mongo the Destroyer on Oct 1, 2019 15:23:04 GMT -5
I don't have time to write a lot so I'll write a little and expand later
-I've noticed a trend on Duke's side characters. Calling them charatures is inaccurate. They're more of a case study on trends
-You do need to read his work to understand it
-Duke tested Ganja Connection offboard first after I warned him of kickback
-Duke pitched maybe turning one of the characters white. That might be the most elegant solution- and dropping the catchphrase, lol
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Kira Izumi
J-ROK Staff
XHF's Resident Weeb
Posts: 5,920
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Post by Kira Izumi on Oct 1, 2019 15:29:00 GMT -5
personally i'm of the opinion no one should be censored or "held back" in a lack of better words. They should be allowed to do and say and make what they want. BUT also there's things that push and even sometimes cross lines. Not trying to bash anyone or take up for anyone at all, but if you're nothing but a one note stereotype isn't something that's going to be looked on fairly or as good. If you are going to make a character or anything, i say ask your self a few questions first. Are real people just one note or just have one characteristic? Will my character be put in prison or jailed in real life if they did what they did in real life? And don't say "oh this is fantasy and fan fiction so it doesn't matter if they're realistic or not" because for one it does matter and for two even if we are essentially writing fan fiction it's still grounded in reality. And if you're going to go on and say what about that dw/cw show on the moon? that show makes sense in the context of CW and they made sure to make it as realistic and legit as possible. If you go on to ask about subject 42, he's supposedly some mysterious creature or experiment from a government facility or something to that effect (if that's wrong i'm sorry i'm just going off what i've seen and infered). If you want to go on about some of my characters, Ultra Kira is an alien from another planet, and yuki sakaraba is working with a multi realm/multi universal space alliance. but i make sure to do my best to keep those things with in the reality and realism of our xhf universe. I mean you can go wild and crazy with stuff like that, just make it make sense within the universe you're in, you know? you can do vampires, you can do zombies, or aliens, or ghosts or what ever the heck you want. Just make the rules for these characters and beings make sense. If your bringing them into our world and universe create back grounds and rules for them that would make sense with in our universe and world. I'm going off topic maybe now, sorry for the rambling i do that allot. so uh... idk how to end this or what i'm talking about anymore. just be careful with what you make. don't just do one note or uber stereotypical characters, or do i can't tell you what to do. and be careful. I think this is a perfectly valid outlook, but the only gap I'd say is if that offends people or makes them uncomfortable. Hence me asking Drago earlier. yeah that's true and i can see that. although like you and dt i'm not really one to talk about those kids of things since i'm just your average white guy. well i've had some struggles and what not in life, but nothing as major as others or anything well i'm going off topic again. anyways i used to do very... if i'm honest not good things and very offensive things when i first started out too. but back then i was like 16 and when i was doing that stuff no one ever told me to stop or anything. i've since grown and changed my characters, well mainly kira from back then as being a psychotic killer and stuff to being a much more well rounded and grounded character. i think what i'm trying to get at is... we're all adults here except for like one or two of us, and we should all know where the line is and how close to crossing it we're at. Also we can always change characters and what not to being better and more well rounded individuals as well.
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